Tumbling Posts

[Joe]

Should Tumbling posts go in the Sports Acro section or the Trampoline section?

Yes, this is a trick question.

[Anita]

In this country tumbling comes under acrobatic gymnastics (formerly known as sports acro!) but internationally it comes under trampolining so .... if queries are about tumbling in this country ........:) etc etc

As a silly question you get a silly answer!

[Dave]

I would have thought it was under sports acro !

How can tumbling be under trampolining ???? Surely for it to be under this heading you must use a trampoline :confused:

[Laura]

Dave- trampolining, tumbling and DMT all come together as far as I'm aware

[Jaye]

I always think of tumbling as being round-off / flics and whatever somersault may follow (or handspring / somis etc). I tend to think of trampolining as 'bouncing', not tumbling (you don't round-off flic on tramp!)

So personally I liken tumbling to gymnastics, not trampolining, so I would think it's more SA than TRA, but maybe that's just coming from me as an ex-gymnast who's not a bouncer?
:confused:

[Anita]

Under FIG tumbling goes with trampolining - don't ask me why, I don't know. But if you look at the World Championships or any other international competition tumbling is held with trampoling. The trampolining "governing body" are those that organise the competitions etc everywhere but in GB. Here the acro "governing body" is responsible for tumbling although, I believe, this may be looked at sometime in the future to bring us in line with the rest of the world.

ie in our Region the acro technical committee is responsible for acro & tumbling competitions.

[Gingerheid]

Heaven knows what type of politics brought that one about...

You would have thought that tumbling has more in common with just about any other discipline than tramp and DMT! (It's the absence of the big metal frame with the springy bit that does it for me.)

Am I right in supposing that tumbling does have in common with tramp and DMT that there isn't really an artistic bit to it, it's purely technical?

(PS - Was there something wrong with Sports Acrobatics for a name that I couldn't see? What nice short name that trips easily off the tongue does Acrobatic Gymnastics shorten to? Acro Gym?)

[Anita]

To those of us who have been involved with it for many years it will always be sports acro! Unfortunately the directive is that we come into line with FIG - and it's now officially called acrobatic gymnastics (I think it's so that it's known as a branch of gymnastics in readiness for including in the Olympics).

[peter edge]

Anita has some valid points,before FIT merged with FIG tumbling was indeed competed at international/world championship level although it seemed at the time there appeared to be two seperate bodys in this country. We competed under the BTF and the british team made up of trampolinists would compete in tramp,DMT and tumbling in the world championships, I was aware there was another body dealing with just tumbling but they didn`t send a team or was run under different regulations.
I hope you find this as confusing as I am writing it!
I think we need to stop generalising everybody as gymnasts, it was only a few years ago when I heard a commentator describe a pole vaulter as a gymnast, are the high jumpers a gymnast because they do a quarter of a somersault over the bar,are divers aquatic gymnasts?
I feel a headache coming on! lol!!

[Joe]

As a silly question you get a silly answer!

Don't be so hard on yourself, Anita! There was absolutely nothing silly about your answer whatsoever.

Tumbling is becoming more and more integrated in to Trampolining on a national level and most North American countries have been entering international Tumbling competitions under FIT rules for a long time. Nationally, we're still regarded as part of Sports Acro, regardless of the fact that everyone else in the world has accepted that Tumbling has become a part of the Trampoline TC. Most Tumbling is still taught in Sports Acro clubs and I've only heard of a handful of Trampoline competitions that have included Tumbling as part of the programme. BG seems to regard Tumbling as its own, seperate body and funding is assigned apart from both Trampoline and Sports Acro. Hence, confusion. There's no clear line about who, what or where Tumbling stands. I didn't actually intend to rile up a debate. Was actually hoping to be given an answer from a moderator, or something, but am enjoying the discussion anyway.

[Gingerheid]

Oh dear. This is too much like work! Now let me see. What were they calling my job title and office this week, and which department was it re-organised under?

What to call a gymnast / trampolinist / tumbler, uhm, / acrobatic gymnast? / rythmic gymnast... Performer? I'm sure I saw that creep into some material I saw as a generic term...

But anyway, the original question. I think that Anita's suggestion is best :) UK tumbling under Acro, and rest of world under Tramp. But what if it could be about either? ;)

it was only a few years ago when I heard a commentator describe a pole vaulter as a gymnast

Is it possible that the athlete in question was a gymnast, or put more correctly, an ex-gymnast? Many are.

[Anita]

Joe - your question was a good interesting one and has started an interesting thread, which is what the forum's all about .....

On a personal note (speaking as a regional competition organiser) I'd prefer tumbling was organised by the trampolining committee because it would save the headache of finding a venue with both a sprung floor and decent, full length, tumble track. There isn't one in the SE so we have to go out of region for our National Qualifier. We could find a venue here with a sprung floor and then pay a lot of money to hire a track in but our TC are responsible for their own budget and if I hired in every time we'd struggle to break even.:(

[Joe]

On a similarly personal note, I wish Tumbling wasn't considered such a sideline event. Most event organising committees only ever involved people associated with Sports Acro and the approach was usually the same as yours: 'I wish Tumbling wasn't a part of -our- competitions. It's such a nuisance, yada, yada.' I have to say that that seems so unbelievably short sighted and selfish. Luckily my region organised their Tumbling competitions separately from Sports Acro, with people organising it that actually had a genuine interest in what was being performed, which made it much more organised and enjoyable. The British was another matter, though. The spectators at Trampoline competitions always seemed much more appreciative of the Tumbling competition than the spectators at Sports Acro comps, although I have to say that Trampolinists bouncing and huffing and puffing through their routine is a lot more distracting than just having some chewed up copy of another piece of Bond music playing in the background!

P.S., Anita, have you thought of hiring out the Black Lion? You could use Jumpers' track and just bring in your own sprung floor. I'm sure you could come to some agreement with them so that you wouldn't have to pay quite as much as usual; certainly a lot less than hiring Continental's track.

[Gingerheid]

Yes, I was going to say why not their own competitions! I couldn't have seen tumbling fitting in to any of the (few) tramp comps I've been at any more than any other discipline you could name at random.

All concerned would then be able to get the best facilities available for their sport in their area...

[Joe]

Actually, Tumbling fits in much more appropriately with Trampoline than it does with Sports Acro. After all, it's all just pure acrobatics; somersaults and more somersaults. The approach to training is also very similar. The only thing that might strike someone as being odd is the difference in apparatus that's used.

[Sue]

I actually think that tumbling has more in common with men's and women's artistic floor than anything else - the tumbles that boys and girls in artistic do on floor are usually of a higher difficulty than any that sports acro competitors do so I've always felt it's a bit odd to have acro and tumbling together.

As an aside from that, we are holding the Nottinghamshire County Tumbling Championships tomorrow and we have nearly 140 gymnasts entered from all over the county - it is by far our biggest competition of the year (and will be a very long day for judges, coaches etc!!). Boys and girls from all the acro clubs and many of the artistic gymnastics clubs are entering. Should be fun!

[Anita]

Just to clarify a few things

1. In our region we invite artistic clubs as well as sports acro clubs to our competitions for tumbling as many of our region's artistic clubs compete at tumbling, indeed quite a number of those who qualified for the nationals were from artistic clubs.

Joe: Most event organising committees only ever involved people associated with Sports Acro and the approach was usually the same as yours: 'I wish Tumbling wasn't a part of -our- competitions. It's such a nuisance, yada, yada.' I have to say that that seems so unbelievably short sighted and selfish. 2. The only reason I would prefer it going over to trampolining is because the best tumble track in our region is at Jumpers (as mentioned by Joe) - a trampolining club - and it wouldn't cost our committee money!

We have hired that tumble track in the past (Martin does a good deal) but we then have to get it transported, ie hire the vehicle, find the men etc etc. Yes, it's a lot cheaper than Continental but we did this for our regional championships last December and the cost of the track hire, transportation etc was still more than the cost of hiring the sports centre and their sprung floor. The tumbling entry fees were less than half the cost of hiring and moving the track (we then had to buy medals/trophies etc): this event was heavily subsidised by the sports acro entry fees.

Joe: as for your idea of hiring the Black Lion and bringing in a sprung floor .... the Black Lion is dearer than the other centre we use (although cheaper than the Spectrum) but we would have to hire and transport in a sprung floor, which would cost more than the tumble track. Our region do own a sprung floor which is kept at the Spectrum Centre, Guildford but we are only allowed to use it there. Do you understand our problems now?

Sue: the tumbles that boys and girls in artistic do on floor are usually of a higher difficulty than any that sports acro competitors do
2. Sue - that comment is offensive to high level sports acrobats whose tumbling elements in their routine are very difficult and frequently of an equally high standard - they just don't happen to have eight of them linked together, however they often have that many throughout their routine. Suggest you watch some sports acro (especially FIG levels) routines carefully.

Tumbling isn't just about somersaults and flicks - it starts at a very basic Regional level using forward rolls, jumps and cartwheels, through "National" levels and then onto age group levels using FIG elements. Sports Acro does the same.

This year we're looking at holding our tumbling Regional championships separately to the acro for a number of reasons - one is money (provided the entry fees cover the costs we'll be OK) but we've got to budget carefully for this, the second is so that the tumblers get the spectator attention they deserve.

The only downside is getting judges - the only qualified tumbling judges in our region are from the sports acro clubs. So, again, sports acro are supporting the tumbling because the artistic clubs who enter tumblers in our region haven't one qualified judge between them. Last year 15 clubs competed at tumbling: 8 were acro & 7 artistic - only three of those clubs have judges: all acro. All our other judges are from acro clubs who don't tumble (three from my club). Now THAT's selfish and short sighted.

[Sue]

Sorry Anita, I didn't mean to be offensive to sports acro competitors.

I have watched quite a bit of sports acro - both my boys did acro for a couple of years after they had done men's artistic for several years before that and my older one competed in the men's 4s and tumbling at National level. We also have some fairly high level sports acro pairs and tumblers (our centre is named the National Sports Acrobatics Centre and East Midlands Gymnastics Centre) as well as girls and boys artistic gymnasts in our area and I do think as a generalisation boys and girls artistic do usually do harder tumbles than most sports acro pairs and groups competitors - probably just because there aren't the same number of high level sports acrobatic gymnasts as there are boys and girls artistic (eg Notts has British champions at several junior levels for boys and girls but only 2 TDP pairs for acro - and I think one of those has retired recently). Also the two top female tumblers in Notts are ex-artistic gymnasts. So, though my comment is definitely a generalisation, I think it is not an unreasonable one - I just think that tumbling has slightly more in common with artistic floor than the other disciplines but really it is a discipline in its own right and it is a bit odd to lump it with either acro or trampolining.

ps our county tumbling competition went really well and was very much enjoyed by all the competitors (and it covered all levels from regional 1 up to FIG). As far as the judges are concerned, they are all from acro clubs as the artistic clubs only do one tumbling competition a year, so unless there could be a straightforward conversion from men's/women's judging to judging tumbling they are not likely to be able to provide judges (we also have plenty of difficulty getting enough judges for the artistic competitions as well - I think it's a problem across the board).

[Anita]

I've just got back from an acro competition: seven clubs and only two with a judge, however one of those clubs only has the one coach now (the other left to join another club as a gymnast, competing at FIG) so she can't coach and judge. This meant that only one of those seven clubs provided a judge - we should have two panels of five. We had four judges: the one from the competing club, two from my club (who didn't enter because we've been doing displays and demonstrations all week and they gymnasts would have been too tired to compete) and the other a National judge for another small club who have just swapped their partnerships round and weren't ready. None of the other judges within our region were prepared to judge because their clubs weren't competing.

The problem will be worse when we split tumbling from the acro (for financial reasons) because I can see the same thing happening: with only three of the acro clubs who tumble having judges and I doubt the other acro judges will want to officiate at those competitions. On a personal note I don't particularly like judging tumbling, mainly because our club don't compete at it and I'm not used to it. Much prefer floor - even artistry which many judges don't like doing at all ....;)

[Jaye]

Sorry but I personally still have to agree with Sue in that I also find tumbling has more in common with WA/MA than with trampolining. Two girls from my daughter's ex-gym moved from WA to tumbling, based on the tumbling they'd learnt as gymnasts (they had both learnt double backs as gymnasts ... you can only perform a double back after a round-off flic ... which is what you learn as a gymnast, not as a trampolinist).

At my daughter's tramp club, only a small handful of bouncers can round-off flic - mainly because they're ex-gymnasts! Although many trampolinists can somersault on a trampoline, they can't somersault on a tumble track like a gymnast can, because they don't possess the tumbling skills that lead up to the somersaults they have to perform, ie a good, powerful round-off flic. (Not something commonly coached at my daughter's club trampolining sessions!!)

Most gyms that coach WA/MA possess a sprung 'tumble track' to learn the tumbles that you are going to perform in your floor routine, again not something commonly possessed by trampolining clubs.

Also the somersaults performed in trampolining and gymastics differ in that when you tumble (either in WA/MA or in tumbling as a discipline) you are 'travelling' but in trampolining the idea is to somersault 'on the spot', ie straight up and straight back down again!

It should be a discipline in its own right, it's a very exciting and dynamic sport to watch, but I personally cannot see the link between trampolining and tumbling being the best one ... but I can see a link between WA/MA and tumbling.

Good debate! :)

[Anita]

For some reason, known only to them, the FIG have lumped tumbling with trampolining. I don't think it's because they're linked gymnastically though. I don't think anyone has actually said it's got more in common with trampolining, just that it comes under their governing body in every other country but ours.

Tumbling (I believe) has been linked to acro for a great number of years (rather than WA/MA) and maybe someone who's been around it a long longer than I can say whether it was originally with artistic or not.

As for tumble tracks - a great many acro clubs have tumble tracks of varying lengths but I know a lot of the WA/MA clubs in our region don't have them (although a number do have sprung floors). The best (and to my knowledge only full-length) tumble track in our region belongs to .... Gillingham Jumpers a trampoline club.:p

[Lucy]

Personally I associate tumbling with wa & ma or sports acro but definitely not trampolining. The tumbling competitions that were around when I was doing gym were, apart from being few and far between, usually thrown in with sports acro comps. Sprung floors weren't that common, I never competed a floor routine on a sprung floor and only got a couple of goes on a proper tumble run (brilliant, suddenly I could do a good tuck back instead of just a whip back).
Now I'm just doing tramp I can see a few similarities but if I did somis on the tramp like I learnt them on the floor I would fall off frequently;)
I would go to watch a tumbling comp on it's own quite happily. I can appreciate a good floor routine but I was never very good at the dancey bits and much preferred the moves. (at least I didn't use one of the hideous piano tracks that were still so popular in the early 80's, whoops showing my age again!).

[Jackie]

Have just picked up on this thread since my return from holiday. with reference to Gingerheid's quote:

Is it possible that the athlete in question was a gymnast, or put more correctly, an ex-gymnast? Many are.
Sonia Lawrence who represented Wales in the Commonwealth Games a few years ago did go on to become a pole vaulter!!!

Jackie

[Joe]

I'll re-iterate, I think Tumbling has much more to do with Trampoline than it does with any other branch of discipline. Historically, it's been a part of Trampoline competitions as well as Sports Acrobatics competitions for a long time now, so the FIG didn't lump Tumbling with anything. They just took it away from Sports Acro.

The only similarities I see between WAG/MAG and Tumbling are that both WAG and MAG use tumbling in their floor routines. In their floor routines they also have dance combinations, choreography, strength moves and other things they're required to include to build value. The code is so completely dissimilar to the Tumbling code, you wouldn't believe it (mostly due to the fact that there are three/five more pieces). Tumbling and Trampoline codes are very similar and always have been. Even the IFSA Tumbling code was more similar to Trampoline than it was to Sports Acro, and most DEFINITELY more similar to Trampoline than it was to MAG or WAG. I suppose to someone who has never seen a Tumbling competition on a national/international level, and doesn't understand the discipline, it would be easiest to assume it has more in common with something where the apparatus are similar, like the floor in Artistic. As far as I'm concerned it isn't. At all.

[Dave]

An easy to resolve this issue would be to create a new forum board called tumbling where all tumbling posts could be posted..... I personally think tumbling is part of sports acro but considering no one knows for sure why don't the BG just leave it on its own and not assoicate it with anything.....

Would make sense ? Yes ? No ?

[Dave]

I Have spoken with Helen and she has very kindly created a new forum for us dedicated to " TUMBLING " so all tumbling posts should now be placed in there......

Hope this resolves some of the debate

[Anita]

Aw Dave - you're a spoilsport. The debate was interesting ....

Anyway - in this Country tumbling competitions are still organised by the Sports Acro technical committees. I dare say that, at some time in the future, the BGA will fall into line with FIG and other international bodies and it will come under trampolining.

[Dave]

Sorry to spoil all the fun Anita......:D You lot can still argue the point if you like i just thought it would make sense to have a tumbling forum....

[Jaye]

Well I said Tumbling should be a discipline in its own right ... at least it's got its own section on the forum now then, it's a start!

Still a good debate though!