Olympic Champion - should he be ....

[Anita]

OK - we all know the story now (I hope). Paul Hamm should not be the olympic champion so .....

Quote from BGA News items:
"The official Olympic results cannot be changed and Paul Hamm’s Olympic title is not at risk"
and then lower down
"Following protests after the Men’s All Around Artistic Final, the FIG has ordered a full inquiry into the Start Values awarded and has declared it’s intention to correct any errors found. Paul Hamm may not hold onto the Olympic Gold medal"
.

I'm confused - are they are aren't they going to amend the scores?

Secondly - is Paul Hamm man enough - and sporting enough - to admit he shouldn't be champion and hand his medal over to the rightful champion? :rolleyes: Personally, I doubt it but I'd like to be proved wrong.

[Gingerheid]

I would hope he will. I remember a similar thing happened at trampolining competition a few years ago, between - pardon any dodgy spelling- Irina Karavaeva and Anna Dogonadze, and the medals were duly swapped.

It does seem most odd that FIG should admit the error, and it's effect, but not do anything about it.

[Anita]

Has he or hasn't he? Very confusing news item on this site ....

OLYMPIC GOLD WON ? LOST ? AND WON
The FIG enquiry into start values awarded at the Men's Individual All-Around Championships have found in favor of Korea and the Gold Medal and title Olympic Champion now belongs to Kim Dae Eun. Paul Hamm exchanges his Gold for Silver. This will be the second successive games where a Gold Medal has been represented and has caused major concerns for everyone involved in gymnastics.
HAMM HOLDS ON TO OLYMPIC TITLE

The FIG enquiry into the Men?s All-Around scores concluded that no change of positions was required.
Yes well - work that one out if you can! :confused:

[DJC]

From what I can tell, Hamm has come second. I think the technical difficulties may still be occuring, and 2 news articles got put into one perhaps? The first section that says he has exchanged medals was written after the second section which said the scores wont be changed, so I'm assuming the top bit is correct, although I'll still be waiting for more confirmation before celebrating :) The Korean fully deserved the gold in my opinion. Also, in a previous article, it says the decision wouldn't be made until the 28th...

[Sarah]

I think it's ridiculous how many mistakes are being made in these olympics. How can judges that experienced get a start value wrong? Surely all they have to do is look it up in the code. Paul Hamm did really well to come back so well but the Korean should clearly have won. Hope it's all sorted out soon.

[DJC]

Working out SVs can be a lot more complicated than looking it up in the code. There's connections, whether the move deserves credit or not and other things. However, I have a feeling it wasn't a mistake :/

[Anita]

I have to agree with you there DJC. One judge at a competition could miss something but at this level it shouldn't really happen - but three? I also don't feel FIG would have suspended them if they felt it was a genuine error.

As I'm not from artistic can you answer a question DJC? Do the gymnasts have to declare beforehand what they intend doing or can they "make it up" as they go along?

In acro they have to declare it beforehand and, if they change anything, the "new" element isn't counted at all and they are docked for the "missing" element which can be very costly (we're not just talking >0.3 tariff/difficulty but they can lose whole points!).

[Gingerbop]

Tsk....
.....men.

[DJC]

Great post there...

The men don't have to declare their routines no, except for on vault I think.

[Gingerheid]

I've, eh, just been reading the BC report on the men's Horizontal Bar final. Ehm... eh, ... nope. Don't know what to say!

It's an awful pity, that's the second time in a row Olympic gymnastics has ended leaving a bit of a bad taste in the mouth:(

[peter edge]

I watched the high bar final too! Nemov was did seem to be hard done to and it seemed that Hamm was once again a tadge overmarked.http://www.british-gymnastics.org/memberforum/images/icons/icon11.gif Although the spectators may not be completely au fait with how the judges see a routine they know a good routine when they see one,http://www.british-gymnastics.org/memberforum/images/icons/icon14.gif besides there is always friends/family and those who are involved in the sport who watch and wonder what the hell is going on. I think some of the problem rests with the fact that a maximum of 10 in differculty can be awarded and when a more differcult routine comes along[more complex realease and catches] then the system doesn`t account for it. Maybe they need to start a tariff system to take in account of the higher differculty that are being performed these days.http://www.british-gymnastics.org/memberforum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[pinkcandy]

I think all hell would have broke loose if Cassina hadn't won!

[Sarah]

I must have sounded a bit dense with my earlier comment. As for just looking it up in the code I meant for vault where the Koeans were given the wrong start value. I can understand making mistakes on other pieces but surely for vault it is pretty simple. Don't they have to declare what vault they are doing beforehand anyway?

[*Sarah*]

I have to admit that Nemov did a very entertaining routine, but with SIX releases, it's reasonable to think he got most of his deductions there. His SV was probably 11!! I think he put all that in to say goodbye but I wish he'd just done the necessary move to go out as gold medallist.

[Anita]

Am confused! Watched the all round final but not the bars, unfortunately, but remember the commentator saying that Paul Hamm got such a high score BECAUSE he did so many releases so how could Nemov be marked down because of it? :confused:
Added 29.8: to clarify things for Don - my quote re: the commentator was during the all round finals because I didn't see the bars final.

[Anita]

Can't reply to your private e-mails because I get the message Sorry! That user has specified that they do not wish to receive emails so I'm replying in public.

I have never said that Paul Hamm is not a good gymnast - he very obviously is and enjoyable to watch. I just reiterated what the FIG found after their deliberations: the judges were at fault and that Paul should not be olympic champion. Yes officially he is the Olympic champion but the knowledge that he shouldn't be will always "taint" that medal and title, which is a great shame. Also I never at any time said he was dishonest or at fault here because all the gymnasts concerned in this sorry event are the ones to suffer innocently. Hopefully Paul will still be around in four years' time to compete in Beijing.

Secondly - I can't understand why you picked on me over the Nemov / bars score as I never watched that and didn't post anything other than this:

Am confused! Watched the all round final but the the bars, unfortunately, but remember the commentator saying that Paul Hamm got such a high score BECAUSE he did so many releases so how could Nemov be marked down because of it? :confused:in response to a post of *Sarah*'s.

I'm not a MA judge so can't judge for myself - that's why I asked some of the questions I have in this thread. I started this thread to open a discussion, which is what the forum is about.

PS: I've used the name "Don" as that's how you signed your e-mails - don't know what your user name on this forum is if, indeed, you are registered.
:confused: Strange - your name now appears as the newest registered member but it wasn't there just prior to my post, because I checked!

[DJC]

You can 'reply' to the e-mail by looking at who it's from and you'll see the e-mail address in there somewhere, so just send a normal e-mail, not through this site :)

[Anita]

DJC - the e-mails I received came via this site and were about my posts on this thread. I tried clicking on the link on the e-mail to respond and got the message I have quoted.

Besides, I think it's relevant to this thread.

I think the comments in Don's e-mails should be on this thread but don't feel obliged to post them without his approving that. Besides, I noticed after making my post that he is registering for the forum and, maybe, would like to put his point of view in the thread - which was the reason I started it: to get discussion going on the subject.

[DJC]

I received some e-mails too :) Just look at the From: field, it should look something like so:

Name Surname @ British Gymnastics Member Forums [***@***.***]
Then just send a normal e-mail however you would normally send an e-mail to that address.

The points raised in my e-mail were very interesting, and should indeed be posted here.

[Anita]

I don't know about you DJC but I get the impression Don is not English and, therefore, probably can't register on this site and, thus, can only reply to this thread if he starts a new on in "unregistered". Alternatively he could e-mail and let us post it in the thread on his behalf, which I'm quite happy to do as it lets the forum users see other perspectives.

So, Don, if you're reading this and can't register e-mail again and we'll post your points on the forum.

PS: DJC - my "from" field stops after the word "Forums"! Tried doing a reply but it still just comes up with "Name Surname @ British Gymnastics Member Forums".

[Gingerheid]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/mag/040906_Issue/040828_pers_cartoon_hd.hmedium.jpg

Only posted for a laugh! Please don't send me lots of PMs and e-mails complaining about lack of appreciation of judges.:)

[Anita]

Well it made me laugh :D .

[peter edge]

Made me laugh too! Don`t be worried about lack of appreciation of judges, I`d be worried about lack of appreciatiion of humour!http://www.british-gymnastics.org/memberforum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Cathy King]

Cool. Made me chuckle too !!!:D

[Gingerheid]

It is an absolutely wonderful cartoon - an example of the simple ones that can be the best!